From: "Clint Byrum" Subject: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/13 Message-ID: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>#1/1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Organization: CR Computing Solutions X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Apr 13 11:04:36 AM PDT 1999 Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there legal issues? Please Respond! From: Gordon (gjg14) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/13 Message-ID: <7f07u6$j3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x6.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 38.217.194.2 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Apr 13 20:03:24 1999 GMT Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.02 [en] (WinNT; I ;Nav) You mean like Gore's campaign web site? ;) Gordon In article <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, "Clint Byrum" wrote: > Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. > Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there > legal issues? Please Respond! > > -- Gordon J. Glorfield Programmer/Analyst Alcoa, Eastalco Works -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From: robc Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/14 Message-ID: <3714E048.B457C9EC@robinsonheli.com>#1/1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 14 Apr 1999 19:35:56 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Apr 14 12:45:03 1999 Organization: Robinson Helicopter Company Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: robc@robinsonheli.com Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick Clint Byrum wrote: Because nobody has written one ... yet. I'd like to know about the legal issues also, because I'm writing one in Python. I started about a month ago, so no need to visit it's home for a while: http://www.linuxstart.com/~openmv If anyone has any Multivalue software they'd like to GPL (http://www.gnu.org) or otherwise make Open Source, please let me know. I'm starting an Open Source ftp site at the same place for Multivalue code only. Rob > Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. > Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there > legal issues? Please Respond! From: ross@stamina.com.au Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/16 Message-ID: <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 COMSERVE, 1.0 proxy.cn-newc.com.au:80 (Squid/2.1.PATCH2), 1.0 x4.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 203.61.120.196, 203.61.120.204 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Apr 16 02:34:40 1999 GMT Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these lines) The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in 1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. (Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful too. I could be wrong, but I think that the number of people with an understanding of machine design at this level, and also an appreciation of the MV database environment are few & far between, and if they have time to spare on a non- paying proect like this "I" would like to find them (sorry, my mercenary streak coming across) I agree that the results may be "educational", but there are cheaper and more effective educational avenues available to people. AT, at the end of the day, what would "we" as a community have to show for the effort - yet another "look-alike" database in, what could be argued, is already a crowded/fractured pool. Whilst in my youth I probably would have rallied to this call, as I start the downhill run from 40 I'm afraid I think the idea rates as little more than an interesting diversion....... In article <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, "Clint Byrum" wrote: > Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. > Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there > legal issues? Please Respond! > > -- Ross Ferris Stamina Software Pty Ltd "Software that works harder than you do" Phone +61 249 538 050 -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From: "Clint Byrum" Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/16 Message-ID: <7f7lha$rag@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Organization: CR Computing Solutions X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Apr 16 8:38:18 AM PDT 1999 Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick I agree with your reasons for not doing it. But I am young, idealistic, and tired of answering the question "what language do you program in?" with "well, its like, you know, its well, its BASIC". That usually garners the response of "What like, 10 PRINT HELLO 20 GOTO 10?". The system is very powerful, and I think it would be a valuable addition to the opensource world. Just like Linux has evolved with the help of many, I think this would too. Ok, maybe we don't NEED one, but I would like to make one. Just to learn about things like compiler design and ODBC(YUCK). ross@stamina.com.au wrote in message <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? > >If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is >unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a >reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these >lines) > >The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in >1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared >interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. > >(Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so >the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. > >So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth >knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful >too. > >I could be wrong, but I think that the number of people with an understanding >of machine design at this level, and also an appreciation of the MV database >environment are few & far between, and if they have time to spare on a non- >paying proect like this "I" would like to find them (sorry, my mercenary >streak coming across) > >I agree that the results may be "educational", but there are cheaper and more >effective educational avenues available to people. > >AT, at the end of the day, what would "we" as a community have to show for >the effort - yet another "look-alike" database in, what could be argued, is >already a crowded/fractured pool. > >Whilst in my youth I probably would have rallied to this call, as I start the >downhill run from 40 I'm afraid I think the idea rates as little more than an >interesting diversion....... > > > > > >In article <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, > "Clint Byrum" wrote: >> Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. >> Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there >> legal issues? Please Respond! >> >> >-- >Ross Ferris >Stamina Software Pty Ltd >"Software that works harder than you do" >Phone +61 249 538 050 > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From: ross@stamina.com.au Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/19 Message-ID: <7fe966$bct$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7f7lha$rag@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 COMSERVE, 1.0 proxy.cn-newc.com.au:80 (Squid/2.1.PATCH2), 1.0 x14.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 203.61.120.196, 203.61.120.204 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 19 03:50:33 1999 GMT Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) I don't necessarily see the fact that you use BASIC as a turn off. Perhaps you have heard of a variant called VISUAL BASIC. Or, if you were running on a Unix platform the ability to say that you use a high level language that is ultimately compiled to "C" may be appealing. Also, putting the response in context, "as the native language for database triggers and such we find the expressiveness of an a full featured, extensible language environment more appealing and powerful than being limited to SQL, though of course you can use ISQL if you prefer" A lot has to do with the speed of delivery of this message, and also wether you actually BELIEVE the message yourself. If you do feel a technological cringe because you use basic, it is obviously going to be difficult to enthuse your end user. Sure, it isn't GUI, but it wasn't designed for GUI either. It was designed to express business rules, which have little to do with the event driven GUI model. If you want the bells and whistles, start using something VB or Delphi for the UI, but isn;t it nice to know that you have the option of leveraging the existing Pick Basic business rules if you wanted to ? In article <7f7lha$rag@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, "Clint Byrum" wrote: > I agree with your reasons for not doing it. But I am young, idealistic, and > tired of answering the question "what language do you program in?" with > "well, its like, you know, its well, its BASIC". That usually garners the > response of "What like, 10 PRINT HELLO 20 GOTO 10?". The system is very > powerful, and I think it would be a valuable addition to the opensource > world. Just like Linux has evolved with the help of many, I think this would > too. Ok, maybe we don't NEED one, but I would like to make one. Just to > learn about things like compiler design and ODBC(YUCK). > > ross@stamina.com.au wrote in message <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > >Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? > > > >If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is > >unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a > >reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these > >lines) > > > >The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in > >1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared > >interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in > >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL > >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. > > > >(Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so > >the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) > > > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. > >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to > >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. > > > >So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth > >knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful > >too. > > > >I could be wrong, but I think that the number of people with an understanding > >of machine design at this level, and also an appreciation of the MV database > >environment are few & far between, and if they have time to spare on a non- > >paying proect like this "I" would like to find them (sorry, my mercenary > >streak coming across) > > > >I agree that the results may be "educational", but there are cheaper and more > >effective educational avenues available to people. > > > >AT, at the end of the day, what would "we" as a community have to show for > >the effort - yet another "look-alike" database in, what could be argued, is > >already a crowded/fractured pool. > > > >Whilst in my youth I probably would have rallied to this call, as I start the > >downhill run from 40 I'm afraid I think the idea rates as little more than an > >interesting diversion....... > > > > > > > > > > > >In article <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, > > "Clint Byrum" wrote: > >> Anybody know why there's no Opensource MV database yet? I think we need one. > >> Anyone else? If nothing else, it would be an educating experience. Are there > >> legal issues? Please Respond! > >> > >> > >-- > >Ross Ferris > >Stamina Software Pty Ltd > >"Software that works harder than you do" > >Phone +61 249 538 050 > > > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own > > -- Ross Ferris Stamina Software Pty Ltd "Software that works harder than you do" Phone +61 249 538 050 -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From: webmaster-nospam@allspec-d-o-t c-o-m (Glen Batchelor) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/16 Message-ID: <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-Trace: 16 Apr 1999 11:41:58 -0400, 209.155.114.10 Organization: All-Spec Static Control Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:34:40 GMT, ross@stamina.com.au wrote: >Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? > >If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is >unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a >reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these >lines) If the client is unwilling to pay for the database and unwilling to pay a reasonable rate, then they don't need to be in the MV world in the first place. They need to buy MS Access and play the MS game. However, a free opensource pick-like database model for Linux would open more people up to the idea of using a MV database system. Then, if they want 'the real thing', they will have to pay for D3, Universe, etc. That would open the market to more people unwilling to pay a couple grand just to test a system in the first place. Who would pay $4000 for a system that they have never tested on. There aren't many 'demo' or 'development' options available in the MV world for a decent price. > >The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in >1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared >interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. > >(Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so >the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. > >So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth >knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful >too. > >I could be wrong, but I think that the number of people with an understanding >of machine design at this level, and also an appreciation of the MV database >environment are few & far between, and if they have time to spare on a non- >paying proect like this "I" would like to find them (sorry, my mercenary >streak coming across) The talent is out there, all that's needed is an introduction to the MV world. > >I agree that the results may be "educational", but there are cheaper and more >effective educational avenues available to people. Education really isn't the point of this in my opinion. An opensource MV system would open the market up to more people who don't have a couple grand to try out a system. Look at jBASE, they are giving out a free Linux version for devlopment. That will get more response from the market than any ads or hype a company can print. As the customer learns, he/she will start to notice pros and cons of each flavor of DBMS and start switching to other systems. Until then, the man with the free demo will get dibs on the beginners in the market. *good documentation has to be there* (cough-Pick) Regards, Glen aka Ryengoth http://www.all-spec.com/picksource/ From: bryanb@webbtide.com.au (Bryan Buchanan) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/17 Message-ID: #1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nswpull.telstra.net 924342419 139.130.64.210 (Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:46:59 EST) Organization: wEbbTide Systems Pty Ltd MIME-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:46:59 EST Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick In article <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net>, webmaster-nospam@allspec-d-o-tc-o-m says... > >On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:34:40 GMT, ross@stamina.com.au wrote: > >>Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? >> >>If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is >>unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a >>reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these >>lines) > > If the client is unwilling to pay for the database and unwilling >to pay a reasonable rate, then they don't need to be in the MV world >in the first place. They need to buy MS Access and play the MS game. > > However, a free opensource pick-like database model for Linux would >open more people up to the idea of using a MV database system. Then, >if they want 'the real thing', they will have to pay for D3, Universe, >etc. That would open the market to more people unwilling to pay a >couple grand just to test a system in the first place. Who would pay >$4000 for a system that they have never tested on. There aren't many >'demo' or 'development' options available in the MV world for a decent >price. > >> I think the point about open source software being "free" etc is really irrelavent. If I'm selling a "solution" to a client that comes in at say $20K, and $10K of that is O/S, DBMS licence, why would I sell the "solution" for less ? The fact that I don't have to pass on licence fees to organsiations that may provide less than stellar support, means _I_ have more money to provide support, or to support others in the open source community. The whole point of open source is that you, and others, have the ability to solve your own problems. I realise this naturally depends on the ability of the person/s using the open source products. (A quick look in the Linux newsgroups will see many messages dissing Linux as hard to install etc etc). As someone old enough to to have started when Pick was R83 and it's derivatives, the thing that always irked me was the secrecy surrounding Pick assembler. When Unix and MS-DOS were gaining a foothold in the early 80's, everyone wanted some sort communication goodie or spreadsheet, WP etc. Both Compusheet and JET were all Pick Assembler. I'd defy anyone to pick up the Pick Assembler manual and actually figure out how to use it. Those that did know wouldn't tell you since they usually worked for licencees and had NDA's. The net result of this was, you had to say "Sorry, that can't be done with Pick". This is all a moot point now, but it does demonstrate that the more open you are, the more likely you will be to prosper. The other point about open source, is that once something is open sourced and GPL'd, it will never die. Suppose M$ decides MV databases are the next big thing. With some of their small change I'm sure they could acquire Pick Systems, VMARK and anyone else, and your favourite DBMS just became an orphan. Your DMBS runs on Unix ? Sorry we only support NT now ..... Another thing that seems to get overlooked is that open source software will quite likely vastly improve the quality and capability of computer progammers that have any interest at all in honing their craft. The best way to become a good programmer is to see how good programmers program. Viewing any of the code in Apache, Samba or the Linux kernel is exteremely rewarding in terms of picking up tricks and techniques. To all those idealistic enough to want to create an open source MVDBMS, go for it ! Bryan From: ross@stamina.com.au Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/19 Message-ID: <7feadn$cbf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 COMSERVE, 1.0 proxy.cn-newc.com.au:80 (Squid/2.1.PATCH2), 1.0 x17.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 203.61.120.196, 203.61.120.204 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 19 04:11:40 1999 GMT Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) In article <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net>, webmaster-nospam@allspec-d-o-t c-o-m (Glen Batchelor) wrote: > On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:34:40 GMT, ross@stamina.com.au wrote: > > >Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? > > > >If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is > >unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a > >reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these > >lines) > > If the client is unwilling to pay for the database and unwilling > to pay a reasonable rate, then they don't need to be in the MV world > in the first place. They need to buy MS Access and play the MS game. > > However, a free opensource pick-like database model for Linux would > open more people up to the idea of using a MV database system. Then, > if they want 'the real thing', they will have to pay for D3, Universe, > etc. That would open the market to more people unwilling to pay a > couple grand just to test a system in the first place. Who would pay > $4000 for a system that they have never tested on. There aren't many > 'demo' or 'development' options available in the MV world for a decent > price. > In my limited experience there are 3 categories of people involved with the Computer Industry. The first are end users, who would not want to "play" with a toy version of a database. They are in the market for a commercial solution, and they buy your "application", not the underlying "database" The second is application developers, who produce the product that the end user ultimately consumes. This is where I agree that a low cost/entry level version of the database would be attractive .... dare I say even a free version. (I note that jBASE were offering a free version under Linux, and Pick Systems were originally making D3 ProPlus available for "free" (aka a beta version). There is probably a place for free product samplers in this market --> I remember that Brian Stone used to virtually give AP-DOS away, and this is a good way to seed the market. However, I also note that companies like Micr$oft offer time limited versions of SQLServer for "free", after which you need to purchase a full commercial licence, which ultimately a developer must purchase. In this respect I find that the Developer Licence that Pick systems offers (it was/is? AUD$750 for a 32 seat version) represents excellent value for a REAL developer. The final life form I have noticed in the IT environment is the "consultant/advisor", where many appear to have just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and ultimately their "independant" advice will be to select the product that they just happen to represent/support/install. > > > >The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in > >1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared > >interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in > >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL > >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. > > > >(Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so > >the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) > > > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. > >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to > >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. > > > >So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth > >knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful > >too. > > > >I could be wrong, but I think that the number of people with an understanding > >of machine design at this level, and also an appreciation of the MV database > >environment are few & far between, and if they have time to spare on a non- > >paying proect like this "I" would like to find them (sorry, my mercenary > >streak coming across) > > The talent is out there, all that's needed is an introduction to > the MV world. I agree, but do we want these people re-inventing the wheel (don't get me wrong, I prefer radials to rough hewn wood) or using their talent to add features and functionality that simply do not currently exist within this market segment ? > > > > >I agree that the results may be "educational", but there are cheaper and more > >effective educational avenues available to people. > > Education really isn't the point of this in my opinion. An > opensource MV system would open the market up to more > people who don't have a couple grand to try out a system. Look > at jBASE, they are giving out a free Linux version for devlopment. > That will get more response from the market than any ads or hype > a company can print. As the customer learns, he/she will start to > notice pros and cons of each flavor of DBMS and start switching > to other systems. Until then, the man with the free demo will get dibs > on the beginners in the market. *good documentation has to be there* > (cough-Pick) I for one would be interested to know just how successful this promotion has been for jBASE, specifically to developers (and end users ?) THAT WERE NOT ALREADY IN THE MV MARKET. Simply providing free product will not garner support for a product - it has to be part of an overall plan to extend the niche we operate in. You are right, imagine YOU just drifted across an MV database environment and had to start from scratch with the manuals --> I don't see a flood of new applications from that source ! But, in the absence of a better idea, it is (hopefully) better than nothing ! > > Regards, > > Glen aka Ryengoth > > http://www.all-spec.com/picksource/ > -- Ross Ferris Stamina Software Pty Ltd "Software that works harder than you do" Phone +61 249 538 050 -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From: mikesw@whiterose.net (M Sweger) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/20 Message-ID: <7fhn21$gqh$1@stronghold.dhp.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <371763a6.71847850@news.inttek.net> <7feadn$cbf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: DataHaven Project, Inc (http://www.dhp.com) Reply-To: mikesw@whiterose.net Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick : > >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL : > >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. : > > : > > : > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. : > >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to : > >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. : > > : > >So, you will most likely have to find a team of people with some in-depth : > >knowledge of, say, ODBC and some compiler design knowledge would be useful : > >too. Hi, There are free RDBMS' like Postgres for Linux. It already has language ,SQL and ODBC support. Perhaps taking a look at their stuff - the frontend stuff -- and borrowing with modification for your free PICK DBMS would help get you started. Although Postgres, has ODBC and JDBC, there was a guy from Australia about a year to two years ago who had made a free ODBC and JDBC for PICK on his web site and posted to the PICK NG. You could merge his stuff into yours. Be aware that gcc (the free C compiler for Linux) has alot of language frontends that convert lets say Fortran to C to then be compiled. Take a look at utilities such as "f2c" (fortran to C) or "p2c" (pascal to C) and I believe there is also one for java to C too. Now Fortran looks more like BASIC than C, you may want to start with this conversion utility "f2c". There are also free Basic interpreters out there too, although they are complete and most likely don't have the PICK BASIC extensions. However, before you start, you'll have to figure out which of the 30 or so PICK BASIC languages flavors you want to compile for. Then you'll have to put together an LRM (Language Reference Manual), that details the Language so that the compiler writer person can code for the language, and any future programmer can use it as a reference book for programming. Mike From: rjc@trump.net.au (Robert Colquhoun) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/04/21 Message-ID: <371d943b.5931008@news.mel.connect.com.au>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au X-Trace: perki.connect.com.au 924696153 19922 203.34.101.6 (21 Apr 1999 12:02:33 GMT) Organization: Customer of Connect.com.au Pty. Ltd. NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 1999 12:02:33 GMT Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick Hi, On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:34:40 GMT, ross@stamina.com.au wrote: >Forgive my ignorance, but WHY do we need one ? For insurance. When you look at the assets of a user of pick-like(or MV or NFNF or whatever) based products a large proportion of the assets are tied up basic code and operator expertise in the environment. For most sites this is way too expensive to throw away. But the asset is valuable if and *only* if there is a MV database to run against. >If the issue is one of cost, I would suggest that the same client who is >unwilling to pay for a commercial database ma be equally unwilling to pay a >reasonable rate for your time (there was a recent side-thread along these >lines) Be extremely careful here, you are talking about a market that is rapidly commoditizing. It has taken ages but today pretty much every relational database vendor has full SQL 92 support and this is good enough for a large percentage of customers. As most businesses who need a database already have one, the only place for the price to go is down. In a commoditized market the only way you can charge over the going rate is to brand your product, unfortunately the only brands the CEO is likely to know are 'Oracle', 'IBM', 'Microsoft'. Think of it like cola - You either sell 'Coke' 'Pepsi' or (if you are selling Pick based solutions) 'no name cola'. You might taste better but to succeed you have to come in at half the price. >The multi-valued database side of things isn't necessarily that hard. Back in >1984 (seems like only yesterday) I was working with a guy that had a shared >interest in Pascal, and we set about writing a PR1ME Information look-alike in >UCSD Pascla (bring a tear to anyone's eye ?) as a part time task .... the REAL >challenge is with the query and supporting language environment. > >(Interestingly, INFORM appears to have been written mainly in InfoBasic, so >the importance of the embedded programming language can not be overstated) > >Of course, you WILL have to address the issue of a programming language. >Perhaps you will follow a YACC course, or maybe develop links to >more "mainstream" products like C++ or VB. I think the best way to do it is to get a basic compiler and a shell and map that onto an existing relational database so that your existing code runs. That opens up things alot more for your existing pick code. ie makes the stuff you already own & sell more valuable. I think a commercial company has already done this - on-ramp or something....jbase are sort of half way there as well. >AT, at the end of the day, what would "we" as a community have to show for >the effort - yet another "look-alike" database in, what could be argued, is >already a crowded/fractured pool. At the end of the day you would have security in the applications and layered products you sell. The ground could not easily be taken from under you - Robert From: Count Darling Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/05/03 Message-ID: <7DF2E65215596D88.54DE45801400670B.D0E21E79B2C5688D@library-proxy.airnews.net>#1/1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <371d943b.5931008@news.mel.connect.com.au> X-Orig-Message-ID: <372E2212.D25EB1B7@budgetext.com> To: cdarling@budgetext.com X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon May 3 17:25:28 1999 Organization: Budgetext Corp NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Abuse-Reports-To: wsm1 at nwark.com to report improper postings Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick A guy named Randy Walsh or sent me a DOS freeware version of a 'pick' environment. I've not tested it completely, but it seems to have all the basics needed. Perhaps you can contact him re : source code for the Linux environ as DOS is fading away. My take is an open source version of the multivalued environment we've all come to know an love is, in effect, a way to secure it - it can't be bought and killed as MS and others are prone to do. From: mikesw@whiterose.net (M Sweger) Subject: Re: Opensource MultiValue DBMS... Date: 1999/05/04 Message-ID: <7gn5h8$nc8$1@stronghold.dhp.com>#1/1 References: <7f00vk$3kj@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <7f67k0$o8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <371d943b.5931008@news.mel.connect.com.au> <7DF2E65215596D88.54DE45801400670B.D0E21E79B2C5688D@library-proxy.airnews.net> Organization: DataHaven Project, Inc (http://www.dhp.com) Reply-To: mikesw@whiterose.net Newsgroups: comp.databases.pick Count Darling (cdarling@budgetext.com) wrote: : A guy named Randy Walsh or sent : me a DOS freeware version of a 'pick' environment. I've not tested it completely, : but it seems to have all the basics needed. Perhaps you can contact him re : source : code for the Linux environ as DOS is fading away. My take is an open source version : of the multivalued environment we've all come to know an love is, in effect, a way : to secure it - it can't be bought and killed as MS and others are prone to do. See if it runs under dosemu (DOS Emulator) for Linux. This allows you to run from Linux DOS based programs. Mike, mikesw@whiterose.net